Wondering what nuances separate the most desirable REI fellowship programs from the rest? This week, Griffin chats with Dr. Jaimin Shah to differentiate what criteria sets certain fellowships apart, and what you can do to make your program more attractive and more accessible to the best applicants.
Listen to hear:
What made the difference between the 18 Fellowship programs that Dr. Shah chose to interview with and those that did not
His 6 criteria for ranking programs
What other applicants were talking about during the application and interview process.
What the dealbreakers were for some programs, and how your program can avoid making the same mistakes.
Dr. Shah’s info:
Website: https://www.shadygrovefertility.com/
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jaiminshahrei
Transcript
Griffin Jones 00:04
How do you get the nation's best doctors to rank your fertility program your Rei Fellowship Program at the top of their list, not just apply. But to be at the top of the list. I go through that process today with Dr. Jaimin Shah. Now he's an attending REI at Shady Grove Fertility in Houston. But not too long ago, he was a fellow at Boston IVF and Beth Israel in New England, and we start his journey from when he was a resident at UT Health Science Center at Houston. Dr. Shah applied to all of the REI programs that were at that time 40, some was offered interviews from 30 of them chose to interview in person at that time, it still was at 18 of them. We talked about how those 18 got a shot and the other 12 Didn't we talk about Dr. Shah’s six criteria for ranking the programs that he made a real time rank list for the remaining 18 programs at which he interviewed I asked him about what the other fellow applicants were saying at that time, how they were communicating with each other and what they were talking about the secret sauce, he talks about some of the deal breakers that had some of the programs eliminated from the list, and I haven't go through each of those in detail. If you're an academic program, you have an REI fellowship program, you may want to listen to this so that you're getting the best applicants, you're ranking higher in their list. And even if you're not an academic medicine at all, I think there is a lot more upskilling of OB GYN is to happen. And I'm not saying that this is going to replace fellowship or anything. Dr. Shah doesn't even get into it. I'm just saying as you start to recruit more in different types of providers, and one of the ways that you're recruiting them is by showing them a career path. There's a lot of parallels in the lessons that Dr. Shah has to offer. So whatever type of medicine that you're in, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Shot. And if you want to listen, you can listen to a different one, that he talks to applicants, OBGYN residents about how they should rank programs, what they should think about the questions they should ask. And you can get some more secret sauce there. But this one is a bit more tailored for you. So I hope you enjoy either one, starting with this one. Dr. Shah Jamin Welcome to Inside reproductive health. Thanks for having me, Griffin, there's gonna probably be a couple of people that listen to both episodes. For those of you listening now our regular audience of practice owners fertility physicians, we did a different episode where Dr. Shah spoke to OBGYN residents coach them on how to discern the REI fellowship program that they want to get into most, how to rank it, how to present themselves and be most attractive so that they can get into the programs that they want to and hopefully get into the program that they want to. And then that gave me an idea. While we're doing that, well, why don't I just pick his brain and we'll make an episode for our normal audience about those of you that want to attract OB GYN residents into the field. And specifically for those of you that work at academic departments, you division chiefs, you other faculty members that want to attract the best of the best to your program. Now Jamin might not say he's the best of the best, but I think he's at the top. I think he's, I think he's at the top of list there. So Jim, why don't we just start with where you did your fellowship, where, where you did your residency, where you did your fellowship training, and then where you're working now and then we'll start to ask about what it was like when you were looking at fellowship programs.
Dr. Jaimin Shah 03:37
So I did my residency in Houston at the University of Texas at Houston OBGYN residency program. And then I ended up going to Boston for my fellowship at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston IVF. And I'm now back in Houston, as a private clinician working for Shady Grove fertility decent.
Griffin Jones 03:57
So you apply to how many programs to start with out of between, there's always between 40 and 50, in any given year, let's say 44. But however many there might have been that year, how many of them did you apply to apply to all of them? And how many of them reached back out to you for an interview?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 04:18
I was fortunate I had obviously had a good number of interview offers, which was great. I had about 30
Griffin Jones 04:25
Is that common to apply to all of them, but when you talk to the other fellows did they apply to every program to
Dr. Jaimin Shah 04:32
I think a lot did I think some that were more restricted by geographic constraints meaning that they they needed to stay in a certain area due to a partner or for whatever various reason. Some only applied to certain areas. What I would feel like probably more than half of applicants probably applied to all programs, knowing that some that they wouldn't get a necessarily an offer. But it's always this kind of to throw your hat in the ring early on versus trying to add it you know A month later when all the interview slots have gone. So that's usually what I recommend to most applicants, if they're, you know, have the ability to, to go anywhere or have the flexibility to try applying to all them.
Griffin Jones 05:12
Okay, so for some of you listening, you're not going to get everybody to apply to your program, that because maybe you're on the East Coast, and some people want to be on the West Coast, you will have a percentage of people that apply to all of the programs, but some of you will be starting off with less applicants than others. So you, Jim, and you got about approximately 30 interview offers, how many interviews? Did you end up going on?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 05:41
I went on about 18?
Griffin Jones 05:43
What eliminated the 12? So if we started off with 30, you went on 18? What does what put a group of those who you actually went to interview with in person and those who didn't into different piles?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 05:57
Yeah, so kind of looking at it is, I think, first kind of the prestige of the program. And I think you can kind of gauge some of that by your own education, understanding of the program's IVF cycle volume, you can learn some of that, by talking other fellows and other applicants, I also looked at the number of REI faculty members, right, I think you need at least two to maintain a program. So some that only had two might have kind of went lower on the list, versus some of that might have had, you know, four or 567 faculty members kind of shows that maybe their program would be less less at risk, compared to some other programs. Location has obviously was another contributing factor. Also looking at newer REI programs, I think it's great that we're having newer newer programs come about, but obviously, that comes with, I think, some a little risk to some extent coming into a new program. And so I think that has to be factored in to some extent. Also, you know, speaking with other Junior mentors, who interviewed recently, who have an insight on some of these programs, it was also a key factor into my decision, decision making, and then also just date complex if you couldn't swing it with your residency program, or yet another interview on that same day.
Griffin Jones 07:11
So you talked about needing to REI faculty members to maintain the program, you were worried about some programs, not making it?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 07:21
Yeah, I think it's always a concern. I think whenever I was a fellow I know, there was a couple programs, that were a program when I interviewed and that were no longer program when I was a fellow. Right. So I think that highlights that being factored into the decision.
Griffin Jones 07:38
For sure, good food for thought for those that are in that smaller faculty range, that they might be thinking about different ways to preserve their future. And it may be important, not just for the immediate, obvious concerns of preserving the future, but even for recruitment that it's, you might be less likely to be able to recruit the people that you want if if you appear vulnerable, even if you're not vulnerable, even the appearance of not having the staying power that some of the programs might so you also talked about prestige, you said you could kind of gauge that on your own. But what does that mean?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 08:18
I think just kind of the, the looking at the programs and looking at kind of when you rank at top tier versus middle tier, and kind of the reputation of that name. And that kind of thing only help you long term with with careers and opportunities for academic positions or kind of next steps, even a private practice.
Griffin Jones 08:40
Such a nice guy. And notice that he didn't say bottom tier, he just says top tier, middle tier, and then there's no bottom tier, because you're a nice guy like that. What How did you I guess, like, what are some of the things that in your research made you perceive that one program might be higher prestige?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 08:59
Honestly, this more subjective? is kind of my subjective lesson. It's kind of similar. What do you think about colleges and residency programs? Right? Certain names are going to kind of carry a maybe higher weight on your CV than other programs, right? It's another thing of saying you came from, you know, you know, Columbia or Stanford or, you know, you know, Harvard program, right. So those just carry a little bit more weight, I think, to some extent. And so I think it's subjective, right to my own personal opinion, but also talking to other other recent fellows and other recent graduates to get their input as well. And I think a lot of them kind of share a similar sentiment.
Griffin Jones 09:40
The reason I'm teasing out is because if it's subjective, then that means there is a range of melee ability that the program can effect and so did it typically have to do with the prestige of, say the university or did it have to do more with the program? What I'm trying to find out is can the program do more if, if they're not one of the household names of universities, let's say, at the very top of the top in recognition, then can they do other things to showcase their program that elevates their prestige? Or when you perceiving prestige? Does it typically have to do with the institution rather than the program?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 10:21
I think it's more with the institution. Right. I think collectively, you know, certain medical centers, right, carry, I think, some a little higher weight, versus trying to make your program a little bit more prestigious. I think that's great to do that. But I think, underlying you have some prestige with the institution name itself.
Griffin Jones 10:39
And this is all pre-COVID, that you are doing these interviews, right? They were in person. Correct. So then you went to 18 interviews? How did the wheat start to be separated from the chaff?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 10:55
Well, to be honest, I use that same, that's that same, you know, seven, eight lists that I just mentioned. But then also, you know, really talking to current fellows or recent, younger clinicians in the field, trying to find programs that they enjoyed that they, you know, would recommend compared to some of the other ones. So some things that I asked about was education versus service. You know, what do they know there was a fellows clinic? Did the fellows get to do embryo transfers? Was this more of like an academic versus a privademic model? Was your thesis project more? So you had to do basic science project? Could you do a translational project? Or could you do a more clinical project? Those are some of the other key factors that I tried to tease out when talking to a couple other fellows, current fellows of the time and other recent graduate graduates to kind of pick their brain. And that was kind of the other way that I helped to formulate some of the other programs I interviewed at
Griffin Jones 11:56
how malleable Did you find your ranking ended up being? Did you go in with really strong impressions of where you thought places would be?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 12:07
I did. But I also told myself to go into every interview with an open mind. Because you never really know which program that you would really like, despite the location, or just by other factors, just trying to go in and trying to trust your gut was a big was a big portion of that.
Griffin Jones 12:25
If you can think of anything, was there anything that someone who may have been lower down on the list that they did to make themselves rise up on the list? Like you thought, well, I didn't think that I would, but rank them as highly as I did, I didn't necessarily think that they would be among my favorites. But they did a and b. And now they're in consideration. Can you think of anything off the top of your head?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 12:49
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I really learned was having certain flexibility in your education right now. You're, you're a grown adult, you've done a lot of training. Now you're in your final stop of training. And at that juncture, if you have flexibility in your education, of saying, Hey, I've done XYZ, so many times, I feel pretty competent in that, let me take that time and move it to something else. Having that flexibility of saying, where you really control your own education, you really autonomy to some extent, and have the independency and have that flexibility within fellowship, that was a cool thing that I saw in a handful of programs, which kind of stood out to me, policy of the you know, the fellows clinic that I mentioned, having like a true fellows clinic where you're running the show, your your your your own attending to me, you have some oversight. But that was another thing that stood out. And also just the ability to do kind of larger scale projects and or have the breadth of doing not just retrospective research studies, but also do prospective and have the ability to do RCT if you wanted, or some other things that come to mind.
Griffin Jones 13:50
Was there a difference in the amount of information that you had on each program? Did some programs you had a lot of information on and some programs? Not very much,correct?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 14:01
Yeah. And I think that comes down to you know, trying to find a handful of other current fellows or recent recent graduates who went through that process. And I really pick their brain about some of these things because they remember some of these aspects because they were closer to it. So that was definitely important.
Griffin Jones 14:19
So the ones that you had more information was that where you had gotten more information by talking to people who had already went through that program?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 14:28
Correct. And it was it was just one of those things that I you know, going into you had more information which was great. But if I didn't, that's okay. Then I just start with the with a blank slate and really trying to learn more about it if I was intrigued enough to, to go with the interview, over worked well with the schedule for whatever reason.
Griffin Jones 14:45
So treat your fellows really well and use them to showcase them so that people feel comfortable reaching out to them because they're going to either way, so treat them really well and then showcase some is probably good advice. What? What did the least attractive programs do, if anything or not do?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 15:10
So some things that I learned, you know, being an OBGYN resident, right, there's a lot of service involved. In addition to education, right? You need the OB GYN residents to run the program, you need them there to function. As a fellow, I thought some programs that really focused on service over education was one thing that I wasn't really interested in, I wanted to make sure that my education was over service. Meaning that, you know, we didn't necessarily need to be around to have the IVF program function, right? If we all needed to go to a conference or for whatever reason, you could have that ability to still function without it. And I think that was key, you can really tease out some of those things that certain programs might have thought was really important in their eyes, but from the lens of a an RTI applicant, right? Some of those things, the certain perspective fellows wouldn't necessarily thought was a key measure of, of education in that model. And so then the other other ones that I saw some programs do is obstetric call, obviously, that was not something that I was really interested in, I think most applicants weren't. And I think that's kind of fading with time. Other Other things I noticed was additional gynecology call that was unpaid. You know, you could we had this discussion amongst all my current friends that were in fellowship of like, certain people had to take gynecology call that was a part of their curriculum, and they weren't getting paid for it. And then some that were doing it as an optional service and getting paid for it. Right. So it was just kind of seeing that dichotomy of my other applicants that, you know, we're sorry that my other friends that were in fellowship, after the after all said and done, that you can see that split. And that was one thing that I noticed, and also the rigidity and like the thesis project, if you wanted to have that flexibility of trying to design your own thesis project, or if you were kind of position that you had to do this kind of project in this kind of lab, right? That that is kind of sometimes maybe a turn off for some applicants, some that might say, Oh, I like that guidance and direction. But those are something that come to mind when I thought about maybe some of the programs that were at least less interested in my eyes.
Griffin Jones 17:21
This could be my ignorance, not being a physician, but why are people doing obstetric call if they're in fellowship training to be an REI is it's simply because they're part of an OB GYN division, and everybody in that division and overall department have to do obstetrics or gynecology.
Dr. Jaimin Shah 17:43
Yeah, there was there's some programs that did have that part of the curriculum that just a part of their division, and they had to change out of that model, I would say, probably less than 10% of programs are doing that when I was interviewing, I think it's now switching to through the ACGME, where that's not necessarily allowed anymore. And I think that was a change when I was a fellow. But I do know when I was interviewing that was still coming about on some interviews. For sure.
Griffin Jones 18:10
Yeah, it seems like if, if it's just a case of getting that experience, you just had four years of that experience, it would seem to me You're here to do something,
Dr. Jaimin Shah 18:19
it should have been an optional thing that if some Rei fellows wanted to do that, by their own choice, sure. But I didn't necessarily think that it would should be required thing. Given that, you know, we are phasing out from the obstetrics standpoint and more into the REI family.
Griffin Jones 18:37
What questions did the best programs ask of you, if any,
Dr. Jaimin Shah 18:43
they were all more. It was a lot of very similar questions. It was more asking about, you know, which, which research projects you really like, Tell me about a certain project. They would maybe ask your general research questions about your CV, goals for fellowship goals for post fellowship, and then really try to ask me about different experiences you might have had, that stood out to them on their CV. It was a lot of these interviews were more just general pleasant conversations, about your experience about their experience, they were all very similar. For the most part, there wasn't really one that stood out there was such drastic type of questions.
Griffin Jones 19:22
One thing that I'm thinking of now is when you have potential fellows reaching out to you, well, one does that, how often does that happen to when it does? What are they asking of you?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 19:35
They're asking a lot of the questions about the nuts and bolts of the program, what I thought of that, you know, what, what research did you work on? You know, what, what was the call structure? Like, you know, how many faculty were there? You know, were you doing procedures. So a lot of the things that I was talking about, are the questions that they want to know about, you know, what is the volume like, you know, you know, how many projects do fellows normally work on? What kind of things could you Do which things you couldn't do things that you didn't like about the program when you were there? What was the surgical volume like? So those are all things that you can slowly tease out. And that's kind of what I was doing, you know, with my, with my mentors at the time to ask those questions.
Griffin Jones 20:15
You know that every single topic that you just said is a TikTok video, right. And of those 44 programs, if some of you are listening, some of you have two or three fellows that are tic tock all stars, if you just take every topic that Jamin just said, and have them make TikToks for it, I bet you you will increase your applicants by 20%. Out away wager a drink at the next conference about it? How many of your peers would you say that you were talking to closely while this was happening? Well,
Dr. Jaimin Shah 20:47
I would try to I was trying to talk to as many of my new friends at the time as possible. I think there was probably a handful of like, four to six that I was getting closer with that was having more in depth conversations about But
Griffin Jones 21:00
how were you meeting them? Were you meeting them? Like on the interview, sir? Yeah, like?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 21:05
Exactly. Yeah. And that was the one nice aspect of the whole interview and in person was I really got to meet my now good friends that are going to be lifelong friends. Obviously, I hurt my pocketbook to do all these things. But it hasn't with the upside of, I really got to make some friends that some of my stuff some of the current applicants don't get to do because they're doing no virtually. But I was trying to talk to as many people as possible, because everyone's input is very helpful, they might have had something a different takeaway that I might have had. So especially if there was an interview place that I hadn't interviewed yet that I was upcoming, like, tell me about this, like some program that I was specifically interested, I would really try focusing on those things. Or if there was a program that I had some other questions or something that seemed kind of weird or odd, I would try asking like, what did you think about this thing, or this topic or this subject matter and get their input? And that was really helpful. Because especially if they kind of agreed with what your takeaway was, then it's like, okay, then it wasn't just you. It was actually that's kind of how things are going to be run, or that's the answer to that question. We also made a case, remember, one of one of our colleagues made a, I think, a whatsapp chat, that we slowly added people that were going through the application process at that time, which was very helpful, because one, we could use that to, you know, share Ubers, share hotels, ask questions. And that was a great way for us, even though you didn't know everyone that was a great forum, to relay some of these questions and concerns or whatever you might have. And I hope that's good option for the potential Rei applicants, given that they're doing all this virtually, to have someone create like a thread and then add applicants slowly, because that's a great way to communicate, and a safe way to communicate, I feel like amongst your peers, it's a useful thing that programs could do to help fellows introduce each other. It always benefits in networking to be at the center of the network, and it helps to connect other people together, because by virtue, you become the hub, if you're helping to connect the spokes together, I think that would have definitely been a huge benefit. If anybody thought of that in 2020, and 2021 are things back to in person now, as far as you know, I think they might be staying virtual. They switch to virtual for the few years that I was in fellowship, I'm not sure if they're going back, because I think, to be honest, I think it's much easier for applicants. This one around and it was was challenging yet to get really creative with your schedule. So as far as I know, I think they're staying virtual for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure if they're flipping backwards.
Griffin Jones 23:48
And that doesn't depend on the program. Is that a universal things that everybody's interviewing the same way?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 23:54
Correct. And I think that was kind of had to be universal decision amongst all the program directors did make it all virtual, or all in person. And I think, as far as I know, it's still all virtual, but that that might change in the years to come. But as far as I know, I don't think it is.
Griffin Jones 24:10
Well, then I think everything that you've said in this interview is even more important, because every thing that Dr. Shah has talked about is content. So if you want to think of of what your content strategy is for positioning yourself, start this episode from the beginning and make content for each of these pieces of questions because then it's all the more important if people aren't able to have some of those by chance, interactions, meeting in person, the having content for all this stuff, having your fellows talk about the different questions, having your different faculty answer the questions and and certainly any ways you can do it creatively help but but just start by answering them straightforward, is going to be useful. So David, I think this is a good topic for those that are in in academic medicine, but the more you talk, the more I'm thinking. There are a lot of private groups, private ethnic groups, network groups that are inevitably going to be training OBGYN to do more things other than obstetrics and gynecology. I'm not saying what's right or wrong. I'm not saying what can supplant fellowship and what can't, I'm just saying it's inevitability. And some of what you talked about, is relevant to a career path that those programs can offer to OBGYN that they're trying to recruit. I'm not saying exactly what and exactly what level of training but just in terms of recruitment, I encourage listeners to think about that, that people are looking to advance their careers, to develop their autonomy, their mastery and purpose in different ways. And the outline that we've given for fellowship programs also make sense. If you're trying to get more docs into your programs, and trying to use the idea of upskilling them as part of the benefit, some people are gonna get pissed that I even suggest that I'm agnostic to the clinical value of it, I'm just talking about the recruitment value. So all that background laid down knowing that it isn't just division chiefs that are listening. It's also some practice owners and other folks, but let's we can we can go with the whole audience or part of the audience, how would you like to conclude with them?
Dr. Jaimin Shah 26:37
You know, I think, you know, for for program directors out there is to try making a lot of this information accessible, because it says, obviously, a lot of information to try obtaining during the interview day. So as you try think about to make your program more attractive, having this information more readily available amongst the fellows or creating slide decks that you can review all this with potential applicants would be very helpful. Because these are all questions that our applicants are wanting to know. And if you're applicant listening, is to do your homework, make your list of questions, things that you think about could affect your fellowship, to the day to day operations and try picking the brains of anyone in the REI field, such as current fellows or recent graduates, because they're going to have some insight that you may not have thought about. So really just network and talk to as many people as possible because you'll learn a lot and you'll learn a couple of different nuggets along the way. So and I think then you'll have good chance of success, hopefully getting into the field.
Griffin Jones 27:42
Dr. Jaimin Shah, thank you very much for coming on the inside reproductive health podcast. Thanks for having me.
27:48
You've been listening to the inside reproductive health podcast with Griffin Jones. If you're ready to take action to make sure that your practice thrives beyond the revolutionary changes that are happening in our field and in society, visit fertility bridge.com To begin the first piece of the fertility marketing system, the goal and competitive diagnostic. Thank you for listening to inside reproductive health.