Do you know your worth as a fertility nurse? How strong are your negotiation skills? Griffin hosts guest Dayna Hennessy, Chief Operations Officer of Extend Fertility, to discuss her tenacious journey from nurse to executive, and how you can learn from her experiences.
Listen to Hear:
The merits, and lack thereof, of getting an MBA.
The highlights of Dayna’s experience to get to the position of COO of Extend Fertility, and what advice she has to share with nurses who are advancing their careers, at any stage of their career.
Why it is so important to increase your worth to make yourself more marketable, and how that worth is not necessarily linked to formal education.
Specific negotiation strategies, like anchoring, and avoiding negotiating against yourse.
How nurses can secure their first job, those win a promotion, and negotiate with vendors and strategic partners.
Dayna Hennessy’s Info:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dayna-hennessy-mba-msn-fnp-c-392434b5/
Company Website: Extend Fertility www.extendfertility.com
Transcript
Dayna Hennessy 00:00
Say what you want. Ask for what you want, say it with confidence. The worst they can do is say no.
Griffin Jones 00:12
increase your worth a lot of you fertility nurses and a lot of people in the workforce in general are being told to know your worth. I don't think enough people are saying increase your worth. And that's a message that I get from my guest today. Dayna Hennessy. She was a nurse, then she became a nurse practitioner, she went on to get her MBA. She's the Chief Operating Officer of Extend Fertility in Manhattan. And so we talk about how important is an MBA really, and Dayna has some opinions on how important it actually is, should you get an MBA if you're a nurse, or, or how necessary is an MBA to begin with? Are there other things you can do like increment your knowledge as opposed to taking that plunge? And then we dive deep into negotiation, not from what Dayna learned from her MBA because it didn't sound like she learned a lot about negotiation from her MBA, but rather what she has learned as director of clinical operations then CEO, going from nurse to NP to executive and we talk about increasing your worth, the difference between the positioning behind negotiation that gives you leverage, and then the presentation, the discussion, the fact finding, etc. So we talk about how fertility nurses increase their worth. We talk about the difference, parts of negotiation, discussion versus positioning, Dayna gives specific strategies like anchoring, like avoiding negotiating against yourself. Anchoring by the way is a lot easier when you have increased your worth having the people on the other side of the negotiation table, do some of the homework to help you. And we apply this to fertility nurses that are applying for their first job. We apply it to fertility nurses who are looking for a promotion looking to take on more of a business role. And we also apply it to fertility nurses who have taken on that business role. And now they're not negotiating with prospective employers so much anymore. They're negotiating with vendors and strategic partners. So in giving strategies for each of those situations, Dayna actually also gives us some examples real life situations where she has COO of extend fertility negotiated on behalf of the practice and times where it was successful, and then some examples where it was a lesson that she had to learn from. So I hope you enjoy this episode, the school of hard knocks episode for fertility nurses, with Dayna Hennessy, Ms. Hennessy Dayna , welcome to Inside Reproductive Health.
Dayna Hennessy 02:48
Hi, thank you for having me.
Griffin Jones 02:50
I am increasing the number of nurses that I interview this year at least I'm being intentional about doing that. Recently, we had Lisa Van Dolah, who was a nurse by trade and then went on to get her MBA, like you did, and then became the CEO of Ivy Fertility and it was a useful program for nurses who I think often don't get a lot of business education. Often I hear our guys reach out to me because they say they don't teach us business in medical school. Well, they definitely don't teach business in nursing school. So if doctors are at a dearth for business, education, then nurses all the more so so maybe we start with what was it that came first for you? Was it an interest in nursing or an interest in business?
Dayna Hennessy 03:33
For as long as I remember how I was going to be a nurse, since I was a little girl, and I stuck with it. And it was always nursing. Business School was never even a thought, in my mind, to be completely honest with you. It's my current role that put that thought in my mind. But nursing, I always knew I was going to move on to getting my master's in nursing to become a family nurse practitioner, which I did complete in the early 2016. But beyond that business school was never, never a thought. So
Griffin Jones 04:06
it was your role and that's Chief Operating Officer at Extend Fertility.
Dayna Hennessy 04:10
Yes, currently, I am the chief operating officer there. I started out as the director of clinical operations when the role was presented to me.
Griffin Jones 04:19
So you're in an operations role and I know you as a very operationally minded person, you function like a system and you're good with systems. So you could have pursued and MHA, you could have gone and and studied health administration for the upside at least I presume, why did you decide the MBA route over the MHA route?
Dayna Hennessy 04:42
So when I when I was finishing my practitioner, my masters to be to do practitioner, I was offered this opportunity with extend fertility almost simultaneously. And I was living in Florida at the time, but the opportunity came along To help build this new fertility practice from ground up with a physician that I had previously worked with at another fertility clinic that I thought I really admired and enjoyed working with. And when that opportunity came my way, it was something that you don't, you don't get those opportunities very often. So we jumped on it, we moved to New York pretty immediately. And I just think the role that was being developed, because again, this was a brand new practice, I felt like, I continued down the path of putting my foot in marketing, putting my foot in clinical operations, it wasn't just clinical ops. And when you, when you experience so many different facets of a business, you realize maybe business school will help me. Also I was surrounded by a bunch of people who had their business degree, and I kind of just felt like that was necessary for me. And then once I put my mind to it, I knew I was going to do it. And I graduated with my MBA at the end of 2021.
Griffin Jones 06:10
I want to talk about what you learned while you got your MB, but you said you were surrounded by people that had their business degrees, who were these people,
Dayna Hennessy 06:20
the Chief Marketing Officer, the CEO, you know, we, as the company grew, we brought in more people from the marketing department, many of which all had their business degree, our rent our CEO, original CEO, she was also a nurse, and she, she I admire her so much. She became an entrepreneur, and she just started, you know, becoming the CEO of many practices. And you when you're surrounded by you feel like that's the right the right path?
Griffin Jones 06:54
Was it because you're just surrounded by them? And you're like, well, these people are successful and smart. Therefore, this is a precursor? Or was it because they were speaking a kind of language that you didn't totally understand, and you wanted to get some of that knowledge? How much of it of each of those was it?
Dayna Hennessy 07:11
I think it's, I think it's a little 5050, you know, to be honest with you, you're my drive and desire to, to grow as an individual, and, you know, make it at the top, I'll use those words, is very strong. And there's the component of feeling like, I need this to be able to get there. But at the same time, I didn't know anything about marketing or branding, or terms that were being used like leads and conversions. And you know, all of these different things CRMs, Salesforce, coming through and HubSpot, and all these different pieces of a business that I had never heard of or experienced in my nursing career. And so it was interesting and intriguing. And so I feel like it was a little bit of, yes, I want to know more about how to run a business, and then also feeling as if it would help me along the way.
Griffin Jones 08:16
So it sounds like some of the marketing terminology was the Greek for me, a lot of the Greek is the financial side, especially the investment, especially as we start to cover news on the startups that are raising, you know, $20 million here, and I need to go back into Investopedia. Look at Oh, what are you allowed to do in a series? A, I recently asked somebody, I said, Do you have to be an accredited investor to to raise money in a in a seed round? Like, I don't know the answer to a lot of these things. And so, so that's Greek to me, it sounds like the examples that you gave, were the marketing, were you stronger on the financial side? Or was that even more Greek,
Dayna Hennessy 08:53
I was even more Greek. When I first started with my position here at Extend Fertility, the financial part of it wasn't as much a part of my role. You know, I was hiring people. But the investments and the funding was not really in line with what I was doing, as I grew with the company that became more a part of my world. And so I think now it's even better that I got my MBA, but I didn't go originally because of the financial aspect of the business.
Griffin Jones 09:31
I'm putting myself in the shoes of a nurse that would be listening to this podcast and thinking, does he or she want to take the next step in business education, from what I'm hearing kind of sounds like you took a plunge? Was it a plunge? Like I'm wondering if someone's thinking, well, maybe I just take a master class in marketing online or maybe I take this one course about finance or I read the this series of books about financial reporting, or whatever it might be you It sounds like you, you had the exposure, you're like, Well, I've got this job and, and I'm doing the clinical operations, but I'm also being exposed to a lot more than just clinical ops and I see a pathway for more business ops. Was it a plunge for you? Did you consider more incremental steps?
Dayna Hennessy 10:18
Now? I was going all in?
Griffin Jones 10:22
Is that just the nature of you like? Yeah, you know, you and I know each other on a deep personal level, but I do get the impression that you are the type of person that's you're you're you're all in or you're not is, you know, I have the impression,
Dayna Hennessy 10:38
it might be a fault of mine. But when I put my mind towards something, I will do it. I will say, though, that I spoke about going back to get my MBA for probably a year, or a year plus, before I actually took the plunge. And I would speak to my chief marketing officer, and I would I would talk it out with him, you know, get his advice, see what he felt about it. I even went to our investors at one point, because I respect him and what he's done and said, What do you think about this? Do you think this is worth it? Do you think I should do this? So and I got mixed reviews, to be completely honest with you, I think nowadays, you can do a lot with experience, you don't necessarily need the three letters behind your name, to allow you to succeed. For me, it was just in my mind for so long that I said finally, I'm doing this, I want to experience it. And I did it. Whether or not I actually needed it to get to where I am now. I'm not sure. To be completely honest with you.
Griffin Jones 11:43
Well, let's examine let's let's put the whole concept of higher education under scrutiny, which I'm a big fan of, in general, putting the whole institution of higher education from undergrad to grad under intense scrutiny, maybe sometimes it's absolutely worth it. And but I would, I would blow my nose with my college degree. And we have an audience of people who they need their degrees, because they learned something very specific, they applied that specific knowledge to a trade. For the rest of us that have humanities degrees, we're on the other end of the spectrum. And then there's probably some areas in between. So what did you start to learn? And I don't mean, like, how was the material presented to you? I mean, what did you notice yourself starting to observe in terms of light bulbs going off as the material was being taught to you?
Dayna Hennessy 12:38
I think for me, I enjoyed the classes that I already knew some content, because when that was being taught to me, I was like, Oh, I know, I know about this, and I keep going back to the marketing piece. Because marketing, I knew nothing of marketing as a nurse you that's just not something that you're exposed to. And it was something that was very big to extend to us to extend fertility when we were first becoming a business. And it was amazing that I was a part of that. And so being in those classes, where I understood all the terms, and kind of seeing other ways to look at branding or ways to market yourself and first to market and second to market and the advantages and the disadvantages of these things. Was was interesting for me, and it was cool to to actually learn that and have also been exposed to it. You know, some classes light bulbs don't go off, because it's just not the way that you're going to use your MBA, you know, with all higher education, you take classes because they're required, whether you're going to go down that path or not. So capital, you know, financing was a class that I knew, you know what I'm going to get through this class, but this is definitely not my specialty and what I'm going to use my MBA for. So I tend to go to the side of classes that I was a little bit more familiar with. If that answers the question is
Griffin Jones 14:19
Does any of those courses deal with negotiation did that come up in the course of your
Dayna Hennessy 14:25
negotiation was not a particular subject that I can recall, to be completely honest with you. It was mainly you know, how to become an entrepreneur, how to understand the finances of becoming an entrepreneur, how to market for that. We had two simulation classes, which were really fun where you get with you know, five other classmates and you basically open a business run it virtually, and we all had our titles, you know, there was the finance person, the marketing person, the CEO, that type of simulation And those were always really fun to understand supply and demand and what you need to do to be able to successfully run this business. They were never medical practices, which is very different also, by the way, then, you know, selling goods somewhere. But negotiation was not not a topic.
Griffin Jones 15:19
I want to talk about how you learned it through the school of hard knocks then but while putting higher education on blast, which they should be if negotiation doesn't appear, and MBA, want to ask of how, how much do you think it is? You alluded to a little bit of, well, are these letters necessary be beyond my name? Perhaps they are? Perhaps they aren't. I wonder how necessarily do you feel they are for an entrepreneur? I don't have an MBA, I own a business. I've done fairly well for myself. But I think a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, I don't think I don't think Jeff Bezos has an MBA, I think many of those historic founders don't. And not just the historic founders, but the lady that owns a nursing recruitment company that she built from scratch. Does she own a does she have an MBA? Usually not does the guy on Long Island that owns a successful chain of H vac repair truck, like a fleet of H vac repair trucks? Does he have an MBA? Almost always not? And so how necessarily do you feel it is for being entrepreneur versus being the operator?
Dayna Hennessy 16:32
I think it depends on who, who you're trying to become a part of your business? I think with all things it, it's 5050 Some people care about it, and some people care nothing about it. It depends on who you're dealing with who you're talking to. Do I think it's necessary to open your own business. No, not at all. Do I think some people might respect the person more because they have those three letters, probably, even though they're not proving you know, that those three letters is why they got to where they they got, I'm a person, as a nurse, who I've always believed, I hated the term. And hate is a very strong word, but I'm going to use it when when you would try to get a job. And you're told I'm sorry, you're new, we need people with experience, because where are they going to get that experience? It has to start somewhere. So I am a firm, firm believer, especially at extreme fertility. If a new nurse comes my way, I almost always will give them the opportunity. Because I want to teach them and allow them to grow and learn. So same thing with this question of do you think it's necessary? I don't think it's necessary, per se, but I do think some people would care about it. And to, you know, invest, maybe, maybe the MBA is a criteria for investors to come along and say, You know what we think you know what you're doing. But trust me when I say I've worked alongside many people with MBAs, that didn't make it very far. And so three letters behind your name is not the only thing that gets you where you need to be in your career life, or otherwise.
Griffin Jones 18:19
The real is coming out, Dan, I love that. And it's because I just think that there's so many people that they watch Shark Tank, they watch Gary Vaynerchuk videos on YouTube, there's been a culture of entrepreneurship for the last decade. And it's put this emphasis on appearing like an entrepreneur, it's just execution, and it's so effing hard. And I am not discounting the knowledge that you could get an MBA because a lot of people listening to this episode, are putting their MBAs to good use. I'm just, I'm just writing it off as a categorical prescription like that everybody needs it all the time. And, and I did take a note of something you said about experience, starting without experience, because I want to talk about the operational systems that are necessary in order to be able to advance people that don't have experience. Let's, let's stay on the topic of negotiation. So if you didn't learn it as a course in your MBA, what have you learned about negotiation in your career? And at what points did you pick each lesson up?
Dayna Hennessy 19:30
I reflect on this question a bit, because negotiation in general is quite intimidating. And it's more so intimidating at different stages of your career. I believe you know when you're first but and we'll talk about since we're on nursing, fresh out of school, going to get that first job. Your negotiating power is probably not as high as someone who is a seasoned nurse with 10 years behind there with behind their back and that's just the way Reality. And so when you're a brand new nurse, you're kind of just excited to get the job at that point, and I think you don't, you don't learn much about negotiating quite. When you're fresh out of school, it's as you pick up the experience along the way. Now you know what you're worth, you know what you're walking into, and, and you know what you want. I think one thing that many people don't do is just ask for what they want, there's usually a beating around the bush or you undercut yourself, because you're worried you're not going to get the position, when in reality, you probably could have got what you wanted. So I, it's definitely a learning learning curve. And you become more confident as the experience is there, for sure.
Griffin Jones 20:48
So you alluded to two different things that I see in negotiation. One is the actual positioning behind the negotiation, that leverage that you have the number of opportunities that you have, and what you are really worth in a transaction or in a relationship, and then there is the presentation of it, the fact finding of it, where the discussion of it, where you're asking for what you want. And so in the beginning, what you're talking about a nurse coming out of nursing school, well, frankly, they're not worth a lot, in many cases, depending on what we're talking about, you know, it, but even that depends on who's on the other side of the table, right? Because if we're a nursing home in rural Montana, and we have to have a nurse, then all of a sudden, the person out of college is worth more,
Dayna Hennessy 21:43
I also really believe that it all comes down to particular circumstances, there's probably 100 Different examples we can give here, you know, let's let's just bring COVID to the table, you know, when COVID hit, they were desperate for anyone that they could get to help in hospitals. And I can guarantee it didn't matter what level of nursing you were, you, you had a lot of leverage there, you know, but also a different perspective, let's take a nurse who has been working in a facility or not even a nurse, it's you know, you're in school, you've you've chosen to work in a hospital or a private practice, maybe you know that this is the place you want to be when you finish nursing school, you are going to have a greater negotiating power, when you become a nurse versus the new nurse that these people know nothing about to get that position. And potentially, you know, the money you desire, because it's not just experience, it's also you've just proven to this management team, that you're reliable, that you are a great hard worker, and I can guarantee that they're going to take you over that new nurse, and now your negotiating power is a little bit different. So I think the question about negotiation is definitely a very big question. Because I think there are so many different avenues for where and why your leverage for negotiation becomes greater. You also can, you know, when you are somebody new in a company, what you know, hospital, nursing, whatever you can do, you can do other things to make yourself more valuable. You can go get certifications in other departments, you can learn how you know, as a nurse, I became a pic nurse. So I placed PICC lines, that is a total different avenue as a nurse that now I can put that out there that this is something else I can do a trade that not many people can do. And now I just made myself more valuable to be able to negotiate higher. So you kind of immerse yourself in all facets of the place in in the ways that you can. And now your negotiating power just keeps going up.
Griffin Jones 24:02
So I like the way you're laying this out in terms of increasing worth because we've established that there's at least two sides of the spectrum of the negotiation that there's the presentation, discussion, fact finding part of it, and then there's the actual positioning part of it. And you're talking about the positioning, part of it increasing worth, which I think tends to be under emphasized in today's Social Media LinkedIn world. You mentioned the employee crisis of 2021 and 2022, when there was an inflated worth, but I hear the advice No, you're worth often being given his bad advice. And it's not that it's bad advice just by itself. It's what it's really saying. Pretend you're worth a lot more than you are. Because eventually that comes to have consequences and you're talking about in Investing in oneself so that you actually have more bargaining worth to be able to work with. And so in the sense of those folks that they say, know your worth, well, when is it the time to say, No, I'm I am worth this, and I should be getting more. And when it is, when is the time to eat crow and actually build actually increase your worth?
Dayna Hennessy 25:30
I don't think anyone should try and say they're worth something more than what they actually are worth to be honest with you. I think, my
Griffin Jones 25:39
that's what they're being told Dayna. That's what we're all being told on social media. And it's, but but it doesn't say what we're actually it just says, You're worth more. I hear marketers being to charge more, like I hear employees being told, you know, ask for the raise. And it's in May, and there certainly times when those things are true. But it's like, that's the it's like, that's the standard default advice. And there's nothing behind it saying, here's how you actually measure, here's how you you weigh increasing your worth versus just trying to negotiate in the present.
Dayna Hennessy 26:15
So unfortunately, I think the the way society is is turning as far as the workforce goes is very different from when I came into the workforce. And I'm going to keep my values and principles of of what I grew up knowing. And I wish we were teaching more people that you know, right now, the yes, you're right, the employees believe that they deserve everything in anything, regardless of how hard they're working. And I don't agree with that. Because you are worth what, what you put out there, and how hard you work and the things that you do to prove that you're a hard worker. And there are plenty of places out there looking for hard workers. And it's actually harder than you think, to find hard workers. You know, I grew up my father owned many pizza restaurants and bars as as a child. So I grew up being around hard working individuals, and I would go and help my mom clean tables. And, you know, I just found it fun. And this was this is what I did, for as long as I can remember. And so my work ethic to always improve and do better, and make myself the best version of myself that I can be to show people that I was worth it. That's just a part of who I am. And I think I think everyone shouldn't be doing that. If you have a way to improve yourself in, you know, whether it's school, whether it's, you know, certification programs, whether it's just volunteering somewhere, do it that the social media stuff that you're saying, I'm not a fan? I'm not. I don't know how to say it.
Griffin Jones 28:08
I'm zooming in on this. And it because all of those things that you talked about increased your worth. And I very often see the social media debate focus on when they hear something like increase worth. They think it's like, oh, that's in the benefit of the employer. It's the benefit of the other party. No, in the long run, it isn't it is increasing your worth. And what I worry about when I see the things that we saw last summer, a lot is people would say, finally employees are starting to realize their worth. And then I've been on both sides of it. I was a commission only sales rep in the Great Recession in a poor city when I was 21 years old, and had zero leverage whatsoever. And the employers did treat them even the good players like garbage. I've been on both sides. I've also been an employer that's really trying their best to accommodate people and trying to compete with the market and trying to advance people, which is all really hard. So I've seen both sides. But when I see people say things like in a historically a typical time, like the summer of 20 to say they finally know what it's worth. It's like, are you really going to say that your house is worth what it is now in this ridiculous seller's market? Or do you really do want to bank on that? Sure. There might be times to take advantage of it in both the labor market and the housing market sell now get that job now get that promote? There might be times to take advantage of it on it. But do you really want to measure your worth on that? Because when it goes back down, then you haven't built the the actual staying power that that you talked about? Yeah, agree. And so it sounds to me like you've focused a lot on worth building part in a little bit less on the presentation discussion? factfinding part? How much of that have you gone on to focus on in later years, the actual way that you ask the questions you ask beforehand? Like, how much of that do you focus on nowadays,
Dayna Hennessy 30:17
I definitely grown in this past seven years in this role. You know, you start out, this isn't a new thing for me, I'm learning, there's always a humbling moment where you have to learn what you're doing and understand what you're doing. Before, there's some other forms of growth with being able to negotiate in different ways. I, you know, me a little bit Griffin, and I am pretty straightforward. Black and white, I just asked for what I want. I think that that's become much stronger for me over the years, you know, I am so used to having to reach out to pharmacy companies or certain vendors, and I'm actually dealing with one right now. And, you know, what, if they want your business, they're gonna probably work with you. And I learned through this business, that it very much so kind of works. That way, you don't always get what you want, don't get, don't get me wrong. But I just go out there. And I'm very confident, and I just say, look, here's what we need, here's what I want, you know, it's for the patient, or it's for whatever it might be for. And they're usually always willing to work with you. If you show any bit of lack of confidence, or, you know, I'm trying to think of another word here. But
Griffin Jones 31:48
what you're looking for is negotiating against yourself, which I see nurses do a lot. Yes, I think that's what you're looking for.
Dayna Hennessy 31:56
I mean, if you show them that you're kind of nervous to ask for what you want, they're going to take the upper hand, and they're going to be the one now in the power seat, to say, well, you know, whether you sense it or not, that's just what happens. And so when I just say, Look, this is what I want, they kind of know that there's no budging for me. And I gotta say, I've done very well, with my negotiating, I believe for our patients, essentially, for this, you know, within this practice.
Griffin Jones 32:31
Yeah. So you are talking about the strategy of anchoring, by the way. So there's different strategies in negotiation. One, sometimes people will say, don't anchor don't say what you want. First, don't say, Don't name a price, don't do any of that kind of thing. First, let the other person decide. And it seems to be more circumstantial than, then you could just say it should always be a or it should always be B. But in many cases, I think anchoring does work better. And I think that it especially works better, once you've established your own worth. And you're showing in this a willingness to walk away. So you're laying out what you want, are you Are you really willing to walk away from it if you don't get something? Or how much are you willing to come to the middle on things.
Dayna Hennessy 33:24
So I think it depends on what reference it's for, you know, obviously, if it's for a position or a job, and you can't lose your job, I think there's a lot of flexibility there, because you're in a position of needing to keep what you have in some way. But if it's vendors and things like that, I can promise you, there's more than one. And so, especially nowadays, people want your business in one way or another. So you don't have to just negotiate with one at any given time, you could have three negotiations going on at the same time. And I've used negotiations against one another to get the better deal. And you just learn these things as you go. And they work. So you know, there are circumstances where you can't back away and you meet in the middle. But generally speaking, there's usually always more than one opportunity.
Griffin Jones 34:19
Well, you use the example of being in three negotiations that you do have options you can walk away, and that is leverage. And the person with the most leverage is the one most willing to walk away. And, and so you talked about an example where you're negotiating with three different parties. Have you ever been on the other side of it, or at least perceived that you are on the other side of it? So you know, maybe you're one of multiple people negotiating with one for a deal or something that you really want? Can you think of an example like that?
Dayna Hennessy 34:55
I mean, I think the closest example would be you know, let's say a dinner nurse comes to us, and we're looking to hire and we really need this nurse. But she openly tells us that she's looking at other places at that moment, you know, okay, how badly do we want this person with us, and then you kind of are on the other side doing this, back and forth with them. And they have the upper hand, and that if we really need this person, and we we think she's, you know, she's great. And we want her to join. But we know that she's potentially going to go elsewhere. Now you're kind of at her mercy. So to think, what do
Griffin Jones 35:40
you do when you're negotiating with somebody that has the upper hand so that you say, okay, they've got the upper hand, I know this, I know what our need is, but you could suffer indefinitely, you could let it drag out? And definitely, so do you suffer indefinitely? Or do you do something when you know, the person has the upper hand is like, alright, you know, I know that I'm going to have to stretch here. But I'm also not going to let them just hold me Oh, over the fire, like a cat holding a mouse over the flames. Like for a prolonged period of time? What do you do when somebody has the upper hand?
Dayna Hennessy 36:17
Yeah, I don't, I don't think we've ever had, I would never allow somebody to dangle something over our head to make it be some indefinite indefinitely. Ron,
Griffin Jones 36:28
did you when you were younger, when you were fresh out of nursing school did because I let people do that, to me all the time. It was a commission on the salesperson I was 22 years old, I was walking into businesses selling a crappy product in radio advertising. And I learned some good habits of resilience and how to do everything and take accountability. I also learned some bad habits of, of just letting yourself stay in that low end of the totem pole for too long. And I definitely let people a hold me over. And it was like, you know, start just kind of coming of age thing meet starting to rebel against it a bit mid 20s and late 20s? And, you know, by the time you're in your late 30s, like, yeah, you built that worth that you were talking about building? So did you do it more in your, in your earlier career?
Dayna Hennessy 37:17
So I think there's two different sides to this question. If I'm the one in the seed of the new nurse reaching out to the employer, and the employer is, you know, kind of dangling me and not letting me know, as a new nurse, I'm very eager to get that position. And I'm going to follow up, and I'm going to follow up, you know, Send immediately after the interview, you send your email to them to thank them for the interview, which doesn't happen very often. So let me tell you, when it does happen, it's quite impressive. And whoever's listening can take that for what it's worth. But many people don't do that, because they expect that they're going to get the job, and you should never go into something expecting that you're going to get it you need to work for it and work hard for it. So I would reach out, and I would follow up to let them see that I'm interested in this position. And eventually, you know, you have your own inner timeline, if you're, if you really need a job, you you're, for me, I'm only going to sit on that for so long. And I'm going to be looking for other things. In the meantime, if I find something in the meantime, but I really wanted this first job, I will reach out to them and say, you know, I'm really interested in this position, I did find another place. So please let me know, in the next X amount of days, whether or not I'm gonna get this position, or else I'm gonna go over here. And I think that's completely fine for you to do. And that kind of gives that that reverses the upper hand a little bit back into your court to say, Look, you either want me or you don't want me. And some you kind of just have to be okay and comfortable doing that. Otherwise, you are going to just sit there forever, not not knowing what's going on. On the flip side as the employer, if I have an employee, not giving me a response, I can do the same thing. You know, hi, we would really like a response by the end of the week, because we are interviewing other candidates. And that kind of lights the fire for them to either you either want to be with us or you don't want to be with us. So it's it's kind of both ways.
Griffin Jones 39:26
In each instance, you're talking about going back and increasing your worth. So I love that when you're talking about I'm in a position where I want a job and I'm a younger nurse and they've got the leverage and they're kind of dangling me. You're still talking about increasing your worth. You're still talking about increasing your leverage. It almost solves for the challenge that you have it starts you said it starts to turn the tables the other way it starts to have a bit of a balancing effect. And that's a that's a good point. We got you've given re The good advice to nurses for that are entering the workforce and maybe going for the next job in their career. What about nurses that now find themselves in positions where they have to negotiate with outside? They've got to negotiate with vendors. And what was that process? Well, how did that start for you? What were the first things that you were doing? And let's talk about that for a bit.
Dayna Hennessy 40:26
If you're referring to when I first took this position as director of clinical ops, and at coming from a nursing background, now having to speak to outside people, luckily, I had fertility experience already kind of under my belt, before I took this position. And it's kind of a group thing, when you're such a small company, I think there were six or seven of us when we first started, extend fertility. And when people hear of you and know you're coming to market, you don't always have to immediately seek other vendors out, a lot of times they find you. And before you know it, you have emails coming in from these people who want to meet with you, because they see that you're about to enter the market. That's how it happened a little bit for us in certain parts of the company. In other ways, you know, you had to go get furniture, and you had to. I mean, it was it was very interesting building a business from the ground up. Not many people get that experience and I'm very thankful for it. We you just do your research. And you just it's it's cold calling these places saying hi, we need we need to set up a meeting and kind of review what services you have to offer and see if it's the right fit for us.
Griffin Jones 41:48
How much prep do you have to do for something where you've never negotiated before? So something like maybe meds or or other things? Maybe you have more experience? Because you had the fertility experience, but something maybe that you're doing for the first time office furniture, I have no idea what your the furniture in your lobby costs, like you could tell me it costs. He told me it costs two grand, you could tell me it cost 20 grand, I have no idea like so. So how much when it's something that's brand new to you? How much research do you need to do? And what research is it?
Dayna Hennessy 42:21
I don't think you have to do a ton of research. You know, depending on what market you're in, you take that information, there's going to be limited information on certain things. And you do a little bit of cost comparison, you know, let's use fertility medications. For an example. You have two main manufacturers for the main drugs. So when you know know that or don't know that going into it, you quickly learn it. Because there were people on our team that did not know fertility. And so there's not much research there, you find out what are they selling these medications for at all these different pharmacies, and then you go in seeing what you can get better. There's, you know, you do some research on additional programs or other things that can help patients along the way. And then you you do your best when you're negotiating those prices. But I think it depends on what practice you're in or what your business is on kind of how much research you need to do before negotiating stuff.
Griffin Jones 43:24
Well, it sounds like you're putting some of that research homework on the other party too, especially if it's something that you're putting out a request for proposal for you're putting out a quote for, let's just see, let's see what we can do for office furniture, you're contacting a couple of vendors, and you're putting some of that research on them, because they're bringing the ones and then you're comparing them. And so this for those of you on the other side, that this is where you can when you're in a lower level point of need. When you have less worth when you have less leverage, you can find yourself doing unpaid consulting. And sometimes it's worth doing that because sometimes that is what helps to increase your worth. But consider it in terms of increasing your worth over the long picture as opposed to something that you need to do in this particular case. And I think that was a mistake that I made all the time when I was young is that it was like it's either this deal, or this this job or this thing, or I'm a complete failure. And then I remember shifting gears, being in a business meeting with people that were way over my head and I was is maybe my late 20s or something and I was like, You know what, I'm probably going to look like an idiot here. I'm going to go into this meeting as best prepared as I can to not be an idiot. But the best way for me to not be an idiot is to do a bunch of these. And so, so when I stopped looking at, okay, it's got to be about this deals. Alright, you can get your butt kicked and embarrass yourself in this meeting. But you take a little piece of that to the next one. You're like, oh, that's what they were Look at that question. I didn't have an answer for that. And, and so it's about increasing your worth over time. So you talked about the the, the research that the other party can do for you, when you position when you're when you're in that form of position, what about how to things differ when it's like an ongoing relationship versus transactional. And I'm not an artist, and I've never worked for a pharmacy. But I know that there's a lot of commoditization to pharmacy, I also know that there's definitely some relationship where you want to make sure your patients are getting their meds that they're taking care of well, and so, and you're probably working with a pharmacy for a prolonged period of time versus office furniture, it's like, we're not going to need office furniture for another 10 year, and there's a million vendors and I can just beat him down to the to the best possible price. How does how does negotiation differ when it's singular transaction versus ongoing,
Dayna Hennessy 46:00
I think the original negotiation is always kind of singular, right? Because you're trying to get that deal and you're locking it in for furniture, actually, it's it's not, this is going to be the same deal one time, because inflation supply and demand, you're actually almost guaranteed to pay more now than we paid seven years ago, you're still looking for the best deal. But that's kind of just what it is, as far as the pharmacies go. Since we're using that as our example. The deal that we made with our pharmacy seven years ago still stands. Now there are certain aspects of it that you can't control. You know, if the marketing, the pharmaceutical company that supplies, the meds is going up a little bit in costs, they may have to go up a little bit in cost, and there's really not much you can do about it. But once the deal is in place, again, the it's not so much on me to do any negotiating with them. It's them trying to please us. So we get the, you know, monthly bi weekly, everybody's different outreaches how's everything going? Is everything okay? Do you have any concerns, because they want our business. And if they see businesses dropping a little bit, they're going to even more so reach out? What can we do for you? And you know, oftentimes, it's, they're doing fine. There's there's not usually issues or anything like that. But I think once you have that initial negotiation down, and you're now in business with these people, they want to make sure that you're happy.
Griffin Jones 47:42
How valuable is that those checkups, by the way? Like, are they actually valuable? Or is it just like, yeah, Hey, Dayna . Like,
Dayna Hennessy 47:51
I think it's like, Hey, Dayna . I mean, I love I love my reps, they all know me very well at this point. And they know how I operate. And so you know, I've gotten a lot of good feedback actually, with with my straightforwardness, because who wants to sit here and spend 45 minutes just talking about nothing, you know, I have tons and tons of new pharmacies coming through my email, weekly. And it's almost overwhelming at this point. It's like, once, once you're this far in, yes, you could have a conversation just to see if they happen to be, you know, they're able to do anything better. But I kind of know at this point, whether people can go better. And I know that I negotiated really, really well when we first started. So I'm happy with who we have. And you know, it's kind of being that whole first market second to market you guys are like 15 to market. And we don't need 700 pharmacies to do the same job. And especially when we have the reputation with let's say, the pharmacies that we have, we know that they're going to do the job, right. They've been doing it for seven years. They know how we operate, they've learned our ways. And now it's just a nice, simple relationship.
Griffin Jones 49:14
That's one benefit of anchoring in negotiation is the time savings that can happen in time and negotiation. Some times go against each other you can have time as an ally in negotiation time can be an enemy in negotiation. And there are times where it's like I don't want to find the best price for something I want it now and you you're willing to okay you're talking to a couple other people here's what I've got for you and then you see who gets the closest and and you move on quickly as opposed to seeing what where they're at and trying to tease that a little bit out and and so anchoring can absolutely save time and which is money and you're in a position to anchor better because you've Increase your work, you can anchor more when you have more work, it's a lot easier. And you know, the hottest movie star can say, I'm only going to do this role if I get $45 million in the international royalties. And I get to work with these co stars and this director, and There better not be one yellow F and Eminem in my trailer and a freak out versus the aspiring actor that's going to do voiceover commercials in order to be able to get there.
Dayna Hennessy 50:31
One thing that I noticed in that example, that I want to not necessary, clarify, but just comment on. It's interesting that sometimes there's an immediate increased worth with being an a hole a little bit is what you just described. And just to put it out there, that is not necessary. You know, and I know you're just using a funny example. But I want to make it clear that you can increase your worth and still be a very humbled person, because there's always something more to learn. And to be that person is just also not right.
Griffin Jones 51:13
So that's such, I'm glad that you brought that up. Because it's kind of tempting to sometimes drift into that person. Like maybe Mick Jagger was always the type of person to walk in and demand whatever you want. He could be, it could be that part of the reason why he rose to where he did is because he's that type of person, and that that cult of personality. But then there also is just as you as you start to get more than as you start to expect things a certain way, I think there's a bit of a temptation to drift into that. And if I'm being honest, I have to be cognizant of it. Because I'm a person that is a dog on a bone for whatever the bone is. And I need to remember that people in the way are not, they're not like obstacles in life. They're not things to be climbed over. There's polite ways of saying I'm so sorry, I can't talk to you right now. I'm so like, I wish I could or maybe we can set up 15 minutes later, or, because when I'm in dog on the bone mode, it's not that I was ever trained. I was I was taught that I could be in a hole or that I think it's okay. And I don't think I've ever ever been close to the worst offender. But I have noticed things where it's like, No, dude, six years ago, you if you saw yourself as a stranger, that would not have been acceptable. And I start to start to notice that. So are you willing to admit to ever having drifted into that? Or do you feel like you're really conscious of it?
Dayna Hennessy 52:43
In my position here, I'd like to think that I'm very conscious of it. I, I know that I for sure drift there in certain situations where somebody's just not, you know, let's say at some random vendor, I shift there when I get an email from a person who believes that they can help us fix the world. They can't even say our company name right. You know, instead of extend fertility, they're saying extended fertility, which is one of my biggest pet peeves. And they spell my name wrong, you know, in the title, and then they're like, let's have a discussion, I can help you with everything. And I drift into that meet like that, that kind of mean zone when I'm like, okay, buddy, you know, you didn't get anything right email. So
Griffin Jones 53:35
it was copied and pasted. And it may have even been copied and pasted by a robot too.
Dayna Hennessy 53:40
But that shows me that you don't actually care about our company, and I'm not wasting my time on you.
Griffin Jones 53:45
I think I think that's where it is. In other instances,
Dayna Hennessy 53:49
I like to think that I'm very conscious of that. Because I think things go a long way when you're in leadership and management, to be able to get what you desire or wants by being firm and confident, whether it's a vendor or something internally, but also being humbled enough to know that there's always you're not always right, or there's always something new to learn. And you're you're a mentor to many of the people that are watching you and look up to you, and you want to be there to support them. So I think it can go both ways. But that's what I that's how I would respond to that.
Griffin Jones 54:32
Are there any mistakes that you made when negotiating with fertility vendors? That one you can think of off the top of your head? And two, you're willing to admit to actually, you know what, I
Dayna Hennessy 54:43
will say one, and this is a big one so well to I have to whether I should say them or not, I don't know. But I will. I'll name this one. So when we first started, we thought Salesforce would be a great CRM for our company. Salesforce isn't, is an amazing platform, I have nothing bad to say about Salesforce itself. But it is a monster of a CRM platform for marketing. And I think they promised a lot of things that that Salesforce could do, that we thought would be valuable to extend fertility when we were first becoming a practice. And it took a little bit of time, I mean, we did use it for a year and a half, we built custom scheduling systems in it, we spent, you know, a good amount of money to build the systems and make it work for us. But then you kind of get to a point where you realize this is not actually working. And you have to kind of cut ties, and you're like, you know, that kind of sucks. The a lot of time and effort went into it. But it's not ultimately going to be a good thing for us long term. So you just have to end and ties with it. You know, there's other examples like your fertility, EMR, you have to pick one, and not all EMRs are good EMRs. But once you're kind of elbows deep in the EMR, it's never easy to make a full change, even though you really want to because, you know, there's better out there. But that that's two quick examples.
Griffin Jones 56:21
So the lessons they're being watched, be willing to walk away from sunk costs. Sounds like the first one. And the second one is, when it's not actually sunk cost, it's your it's you really are in a position where mobility isn't that much of an option, there's a greater cost to potentially switching. The second lesson sounds like it's live with your decision.
Dayna Hennessy 56:45
Yeah, or or you, you make the change, which I think will happen very soon, eventually, because it's been my mission for seven years. So when I get my mind to something, like I said, I will, I will make it happen. That is, that is my thing.
Griffin Jones 57:02
It was one night and seven years in the making that that it happened so well, you've given us a ton, I would rather I would recommend to the vast majority of nurses to instead of taking a business class on negotiation with 75% of the business professors in this country, I would go if you can shadow Dayna , for see if they need to travel nurse, do they need to travel nurse and just go to Manhattan for a month and see if you can be under Dayna’s tutelage. And you've given us a lot to think about the difference between the presentation and discussion and negotiation versus the positioning behind it, increasing one's worth, and particularly how to do that as a nurse, not just know your worth, but how to actually increase your nerve. Anchoring, avoiding negotiating against yourself, having the people on the other side of the negotiation table, do some of the homework, ignoring sunk cost, and then either living with the decision or making living with the decision if you can't correct it, or correcting it, if you can. So you've given us a ton. What would you like to conclude with?
Dayna Hennessy 58:13
Oh, man, I would in spirits of the topic, I think I would definitely recommend for new nurses to try or pre nursing, I keep saying new nurses, but try to seek employment in the place that you want to be, so that you have the most negotiating power to get the position. Once you finish nursing school there. Say what you want. Ask for what you want, say it with confidence, the worst they can do is say no. But at the end of the day, you will likely be in a negotiating spot at that point. And always do research on the company. You can find out through platforms Glassdoor. Indeed, what starting salaries might be so you have a starting point. You know, don't even if it's not even within your range, don't go there and maybe find something different. That's what I would say as far as negotiating power. As far as the NBA situation goes, I, I don't want to discourage people to get their MBA, if it's something that you've had your mind put on and you're like me, and you're just going to accomplish what you put your mind out to do. Do it, you're gonna learn some valuable things. But I think it's very situational on what, what you want to do. Ultimately, with your career. If you're a clinical person, an MBA is not for you. Go go into different clinical certificates. But if you're looking to run a medical practice, maybe it's something more worth looking into. I don't think it's entirely necessary.
Griffin Jones 1:00:03
Well, I've enjoyed learning from the school of hard knocks with you today and I imagine that our audience has as well. And if you are going to email or LinkedIn connect with Dayna after this episode, it's Dayna with a Y, Ms. Dayna Hennessy. Thank you very much for coming on inside reproductive health.
Dayna Hennessy 1:00:22
Thank you so much for having me, Griffin.
Sponsor 1:00:25
You've been listening to the inside reproductive health podcast with Griffin Jones. If you are ready to take action to make sure that your practice thrives beyond the revolutionary changes that are happening in our field and in society, visit fertility bridge.com To begin the first piece of the fertility marketing system, the goal and competitive diagnostic. Thank you for listening to inside reproductive health